so when will plesk + horde integrate PROPERLY?

[Sven L.]

Since 2007 and 2008 this has been asked several times on this very forum. And some users posted their scripts to attempt to get this improved here or on their blogs.

I just downloaded a plesk 11 trial and installed it on a freshly installed centos server, just to test this...

and it STILL sucks...

SCENARIO:
horde white list and filters do NOT sync to the control panel and only work when using the webmail. to configure REAL whitelist and spam filters (that work when you use imap/pop) the user has to log into plesk panel with his panel credentials.

filters created in horde do NOT sync to the control panel, thus making them totally useless.

why is it STILL not possible to have everything in the same place? look at gmail, look at hotmail? you log in ONCE and there you have your inbox and all your options. why is plesk still making this so difficult for final users?

i sell a domain to a customer and i have to tell him:
1) for your webmail you use http://webmail.yourdomain.tld then you enter your user and pass
2) if you want to configure filters, admin your spam, set a "out of office notice" you need to go to https://yourdomain.tld:8443

and he asks: can't this all be unified like in hotmail?

99,99% of my customers use their computer or smartphone to read mail, but also have the need to use webmail often. making things more complicated instead of more easy is NOT the way to go.

this is STUPID. this should have been unified into one single place since plesk panel v10 already.

oh and one more thing, can anyone point me to how to make it so mail users can NOT set up or change mail aliases and redirects in their control panel (v11)?

 

[AandCmedia]

I'm also going to assume that suPHP + Plesk + Horde still don't play nice with each other out of the box. This is a big downfall as @mail is like 4 years old now....

 

[abdi]

I suggest they add roundcube and if possible as default as the new version really beats Horde.

 

[Alexey.Plotnitsky]

Since Plesk 11.5, which is in preview stage now,
Plesk offers access to the Control Panel for mail users. When creating a mailbox, customers can specify whether Panel should create a corresponding user account.

One can download Plesk 11.5 for evaluation, but it is not for production servers.
The download links are in Plesk 11.5 Preview thread

 

[Sven L.]

Since Plesk 11.5, which is in preview stage now,
Plesk offers access to the Control Panel for mail users. When creating a mailbox, customers can specify whether Panel should create a corresponding user account.

One can download Plesk 11.5 for evaluation, but it is not for production servers.
The download links are in Plesk 11.5 Preview thread

I will give it a try during the weekend.

When can we expect 11.5 to roll out for production servers?

 

[Alexey.Plotnitsky]

Sven L.,

Sorry, we don't have ETA for 11.5 yet.

As for your initial question regarding horde: Plesk 11.5 will have much better webmail option, RoundCube

 

[Sergey L]

Since 2007 and 2008 this has been asked several times on this very forum. And some users posted their scripts to attempt to get this improved here or on their blogs.
SCENARIO:
horde white list and filters do NOT sync to the control panel and only work when using the webmail. to configure REAL whitelist and spam filters (that work when you use imap/pop) the user has to log into plesk panel with his panel credentials.

filters created in horde do NOT sync to the control panel, thus making them totally useless.

why is it STILL not possible to have everything in the same place? look at gmail, look at hotmail? you log in ONCE and there you have your inbox and all your options. why is plesk still making this so difficult for final users?

i sell a domain to a customer and i have to tell him:
1) for your webmail you use http://webmail.yourdomain.tld then you enter your user and pass
2) if you want to configure filters, admin your spam, set a "out of office notice" you need to go to https://yourdomain.tld:8443

and he asks: can't this all be unified like in hotmail?

99,99% of my customers use their computer or smartphone to read mail, but also have the need to use webmail often. making things more complicated instead of more easy is NOT the way to go.

this is STUPID. this should have been unified into one single place since plesk panel v10 already.

I see a confusion here. While Plesk enables web mail for your customers, webmail (current Horde or obsolete Atmail, or Roundcube in future) will always remain separate from Plesk and will function separately. I am not sure we will ever go into severe modification of webmail software for the sake of enabling Plesk functions inside of it - that's actually a matter of legal restrictions, GPL and "derived work" concept. I am not sure we will consider developing own built-in webmail - we had such option in another software of Parallels, and practically it appears always behind expectations (comparing to other solutions), simply because we are not webmail developing company and so far we are not going to convert. Embedding webmail deeper in Plesk UI also has legal limitations and we are very-very serious about it.

While I would definitely see higher user convenience in deeper integration, from effort and legal standpoints this isn't going to happen soon.
After all Plesk's primary focus is web sites, which makes it very much different from hotmail or gmail platforms.

As a partial solution for your concern - Plesk UI 8443 one) does include reference to web mail, so you can actually give just one entry point to your users instead of two.
We also strongly consider Roundcube support added soon.

Regards

 

[Sven L.]

I see a confusion here. While Plesk enables web mail for your customers, webmail (current Horde or obsolete Atmail, or Roundcube in future) will always remain separate from Plesk and will function separately. I am not sure we will ever go into severe modification of webmail software for the sake of enabling Plesk functions inside of it - that's actually a matter of legal restrictions, GPL and "derived work" concept. I am not sure we will consider developing own built-in webmail - we had such option in another software of Parallels, and practically it appears always behind expectations (comparing to other solutions), simply because we are not webmail developing company and so far we are not going to convert. Embedding webmail deeper in Plesk UI also has legal limitations and we are very-very serious about it.

While I would definitely see higher user convenience in deeper integration, from effort and legal standpoints this isn't going to happen soon.
After all Plesk's primary focus is web sites, which makes it very much different from hotmail or gmail platforms.

As a partial solution for your concern - Plesk UI 8443 one) does include reference to web mail, so you can actually give just one entry point to your users instead of two.
We also strongly consider Roundcube support added soon.

Regards

well, i think this is kinda stupid to be honest.

so, a final END USER needs to remember the URL with the port, then access to his panel, then click on the webmail button, then probably insert his password again, then he can finally use his webmail? and you call this user-friendly?
AND he has to remember that the horde white/black list is not to be used, but to use the panel one instead?
and don't even get me started with horde-plesk-spamassassin training integration, which currently is absolutely horrible and useless

and what does proper integration have anything to do GPL in this case?

WHAT WE NEED:
1) horde or roundcube white/black list needs to be synced to the panel one (this does currently NOT happen) because only the panel one works for imap/pop and only the internal one is actually applied to greylisting
2) one SINGLE interface where users can read their email AND setup out-of-office notices AND train their antispam properly
3) SIMPLIFY the end-user experience, not make it a nightmare like it is now

i doubt you'll break any licenses by making a automated script that syncs black/white lists + antispam training properly between webmail and panel?

this has been a problem since i use plesk (v7, like 10y. now?) and has totally been ignored for over 5 years (first posts on this forums about this issue date 2007). it's 2013 now, and gmail is doing all this (nearly) flawlessly for what, 5+ years? have you guys not learned anything all this time?

it's hard enough nowadays to convince people that 512mb or 1GB mailbox is enough and sell domains, but with this crappy webmail integration it's just beyond stupid. might aswell stop giving mail services alltogether and switch all my users to gmail /sigh


a very dissapointed customer signing off,
Sven L.

 

[Sergey L]

so, a final END USER needs to remember the URL with the port,

Yes, control panel requires users to remember the URL. You can probably establish a redirect for their convenience.

,,,then access to his panel, then click on the webmail button, then probably insert his password again, then he can finally use his webmail? and you call this user-friendly?

No, they don't need to insert the password again.

and don't even get me started with horde-plesk-spamassassin training integration, which currently is absolutely horrible and useless

It would be appreciated if you are more specific here.

WHAT WE NEED:
...
3) SIMPLIFY the end-user experience, not make it a nightmare like it is now

I personally would agree that single interface would be more convenient, however we are not doing it at the moment for the reasons explain above.
If you could explain your point in #3 with more details, we can improve it. We improve user experience when we have specific feedback on currently inconvenient scenarios and about more convenient ways of doing these tasks.

it's 2013 now, and gmail is doing all this (nearly) flawlessly for what, 5+ years? have you guys not learned anything all this time?

Well, Plesk is not in GMail business. Mail is just one of functions Plesk does and GMail is all about mail. Due to Plesk nature, it will never be equally focused on mail.
Seriously, you may need different solution if competing Gmail is your goal.

 

[Sven L.]

Hello again.

Sergey I took some time to reply as I installed:
OS CentOS 6.3 (Final)
Panel version 11.5.24

fresh and did some tests from the different points of view.

i'll post some problems and questions hopefully you can provide a solution for each of them

FROM USER POINT OF VIEW

:8443 PANEL
1) user still need 2 logins. if he wants to modify his white/blacklist and other antispam settings, he needs to log into the :8443 panel
if inside the panel he needs to go to the webmail, he has to click on a link which opens the webmail and he is again asked for his password.
this is far from being userfriendly and unacceptable for anyone who wants to sell (web)email services.

2) how to remove the ACCOUNT tab on the top of the :8443 panel? i don't want final users to see such information (and it shows info for the whole domain!), but i need them to be able to access to their antispam and out of office settings

3) inside mail settings, how to remove the MAIL ALIASES tab? i don't want users to see this information nor do i want them to modify aliases

4) there is no way for users to set their wanted default language. how to fix this?

ROUNDCUBE:
5) would it be possible to somewhere add a link to this interface that points to the :8443 panel? i'd rather have users enter their webmail and from there go to the panel, than the other way around.

6a) question (could not test myself): if in the :8443 panel spam filter it's configured to move spam to the spam folder, do mails in fact go to the roundcube "junk" folder?
6b) question (could not test myself): does the spamassasin daemon learn from each users roundcube "junk" folder?

7) i have seen an option to import contacts if they are in a vcard format. is there any way to actually EXPORT? or some way to SYNC (even if it's 3rd party) the roundcube contacts to a smartphone?

8) i have read somewhere that roundcube supports plugins. do those plugins work in plesk too? is there any plugin that lets a user change their spamsettings (incl. b/w list) and their autoreply settings from within roundcube? (and when i say "change those settings" i assume that they sync properly to the :8443 panel settings)

FROM ADMIN POINT OF VIEW

9) when adding a new email to a domain, the defaul user role is "application user" which does not include antispam managing roles. i have created a new user role called "webmail user" with the proper permissions. but how can i make it so everytime i add a new email, it defaults to this role?

10) probably a stupid question. i just came up with it so i didn't research on my own yet: could you tell me how to do it so when a user goes to http://panel.domain.tld he is redirected to https://panel.domain.tld:8443 ?

you see, many questions because imho, the current webmail system in plesk is still bad. and i think it is bad (and has always been) because of the people in charge at plesk still have the mentality of "two different systems, :8443 panel + webmail" instead of working towards a REAL single integrated solution (which CAN be done with some scripts, as several users have proven here on this forums for many many years already).
if those who "decide stuff" in plesk would have decided to do it properly like 10 years ago, we'd not be talking about this now. but they probably have never even bothered to try the webmail themselves.

anyways, thx for any solution you can offer for those problems and questions.

 

[Alexey.Plotnitsky]

1) user still need 2 logins...
Thanks for info, we will revert on this. Please note, the password asked once, until the user will not logout from the webmail.

2) how to remove the ACCOUNT tab on the top of the :8443 panel?...
It can be done for additional user using customized user roles. However, default, non-editable, built-in role “Owner” allows access to “ACCOUNT” tab

3) inside mail settings, how to remove the MAIL ALIASES tab?...
It is not possible right now.

4) there is no way for users to set their wanted default language...
It works now, perhaps it was a little glitch in that specific preview version.

5) would it be possible to somewhere add a link to this interface that points to the :8443 panel? ...
Thanks for idea. Yes, it can be done via custom plug-in (like Spam button that also came from plug-in)

6a) question (could not test myself): if in the :8443 panel spam filter it's configured to move spam to the spam folder, do mails in fact go to the roundcube "junk" folder?
6b) question (could not test myself): does the spamassasin daemon learn from each users roundcube "junk" folder?
Will revert on this.

7) i have seen an option to import contacts if they are in a vcard format. is there any way to actually EXPORT?...
Contacts can be exported in VCARD format. SYNC (via SyncML protocol) is a really complex feature.

8) i have read somewhere that roundcube supports plugins. do those plugins work in plesk too? is there any plugin that lets a user change their spamsettings (incl. b/w list) and their autoreply settings from within roundcube? ...
Yes, there are RoundCube plug-ins that already work with Plesk. This specific plug-in also should work in a theory. We are thinking about this possibility.

FROM ADMIN POINT OF VIEW

9) when adding a new email to a domain, the defaul user role is "application user" which does not include antispam managing roles...
“Application User” role can be adjusted in order to enable antispam management. Both by admin and customer.

10) probably a stupid question. i just came up with it so i didn't research on my own yet: could you tell me how to do it so when a user goes to http://panel.domain.tld he is redirected to https://panel.domain.tld:8443 ?
Redirect need to be setup:
panel.domain.tld => panel.domain.tld:8443
However currently Plesk does not allow to setup such redirects in UI.
Thus, such forwarding should be implemented manually using apache mod rewrite rules (.htaccess in root folder for panel.domain.tld)

 

[Sven L.]

---double post---

 

[Sven L.]

Thanks for your reply Alexey,
I see there are still things to be investigated by you, so I hope to hear a new reply from you soon.
I will comment on what you said:


:8443 USER PANEL
==============

1) user still need 2 logins...
Thanks for info, we will revert on this. Please note, the password asked once, until the user will not logout from the webmail.

from what i have tested, the LOGIN is asked once, the PASSWORD is asked twice (one for :8443 panel and one when you click on the webmail)
if i understand you correctly you will investigate this further, right?

2) how to remove the ACCOUNT tab on the top of the :8443 panel?...
It can be done for additional user using customized user roles. However, default, non-editable, built-in role “Owner” allows access to “ACCOUNT” tab

can you elaborate a little more on this please? where do i see the difference between an email that is "owner" and an email that is not? where is this option?
EDIT: i just tested this again. i created a NEW email, the "application user" role only has "configure spam filter" enabled, yet when the mail user logs into the :8443 user panel, he has access to the "ACCOUNT" tab with a lot of information about the domain. there must be a way to disable/hide this?
when i go into my admin panel and edit that users settings, there is an option called "access to subscriptions" with two options a) "all" and b) "domain.tld" - this one is the default one.
i think there should be a third option and it should be the default one: "NONE"

3) inside mail settings, how to remove the MAIL ALIASES tab?...
It is not possible right now.

understood. i hope you can make this as an option on/off somehow in the future

4) there is no way for users to set their wanted default language...
It works now, perhaps it was a little glitch in that specific preview version.

i will update later and test
EDIT: there is no version above 11.5.24 so in which version do you say it is fixed?


ROUNDCUBE USER
=============

5) would it be possible to somewhere add a link to this interface that points to the :8443 panel? ...
Thanks for idea. Yes, it can be done via custom plug-in (like Spam button that also came from plug-in)

will parallels take care of this in the near future or do we admins have to find a way to do it?

6a) question (could not test myself): if in the :8443 panel spam filter it's configured to move spam to the spam folder, do mails in fact go to the roundcube "junk" folder?
6b) question (could not test myself): does the spamassasin daemon learn from each users roundcube "junk" folder?
Will revert on this.

i will wait for your response on this. it is very important for this to work properly, or roundcube plugins will be nearly useless if they don't integrate/sync properly with :8443 settings

7) i have seen an option to import contacts if they are in a vcard format. is there any way to actually EXPORT?...
Contacts can be exported in VCARD format. SYNC (via SyncML protocol) is a really complex feature.

ok. thx

8) i have read somewhere that roundcube supports plugins. do those plugins work in plesk too? is there any plugin that lets a user change their spamsettings (incl. b/w list) and their autoreply settings from within roundcube? ...
Yes, there are RoundCube plug-ins that already work with Plesk. This specific plug-in also should work in a theory. We are thinking about this possibility.

it would be extremely helpful if parallels could make a list of plugins they have tested that work 100% correctly and integrate well with plesk panel
for example, there are many roundcube autoreply and antispam settings, but which does work best with plesk?
EDIT: the plugin i am most interested in is called "sauserprefs" (https://github.com/JohnDoh/Roundcube-Plugin-SpamAssassin-User-Prefs-SQL)
it is made by the same person that make "markasjunk2" which is a plugin plesk already incorporates by default
the problem is, "sauserprefs" works with spamassassin and the default mysql database/tables. however plesk changed that a lot, in first place the database is called PSA, then the tables have different names and structure
why did parallels decide to change spamassassin database so much that it is no longer compatible with 3rd party products "out of the box"?
can parallels please work together with the creator of those plugins to make roundcube+plesk+"sauserprefs" work together correctly?


:8443 ADMIN PANEL
===============

9) when adding a new email to a domain, the defaul user role is "application user" which does not include antispam managing roles...
“Application User” role can be adjusted in order to enable antispam management. Both by admin and customer.

maybe my question was not precise.
the question is: how can i make it so a custom role i created ("webmail user") becomes the DEFAULT role when i create a new email?

10) probably a stupid question. i just came up with it so i didn't research on my own yet: could you tell me how to do it so when a user goes to http://panel.domain.tld he is redirected to https://panel.domain.tld:8443 ?
Redirect need to be setup:
panel.domain.tld => panel.domain.tld:8443
However currently Plesk does not allow to setup such redirects in UI.
Thus, such forwarding should be implemented manually using apache mod rewrite rules (.htaccess in root folder for panel.domain.tld)

ok, thx. this would not be really necesary if parallels can make point (5) possible


i hope to hear from you soon.

Sven L.

 

[Sven L.]

i have just updated to 11.5.25 and repeated all the above tests. nothing has been fixed and all problems are still the same.

@Alexey.Plotnitsky do you have any news on all those issues we have talked about?

 

[Alexey.Plotnitsky]

1) user still need 2 logins...
if i understand you correctly you will investigate this further, right?
Confirm, the password is asked twice. We will revert on this, it is currently under research by dev team

2) how to remove the ACCOUNT tab on the top of the :8443 panel?...
...
when i go into my admin panel and edit that users settings, there is an option called "access to subscriptions" with two options a) "all" and b) "domain.tld" - this one is the default one.
i think there should be a third option and it should be the default one: "NONE"
Thanks for the idea. We will consider this and will revert.

3) inside mail settings, how to remove the MAIL ALIASES tab?...
...
Alexey: It is not possible right now.
understood. i hope you can make this as an option on/off somehow in the future
We will take into account this in next releases. Thanks for the input.


4) there is no way for users to set their wanted default language...
It works now, perhaps it was a little glitch in that specific preview version.
i will update later and test
EDIT: there is no version above 11.5.24 so in which version do you say it is fixed?
Confirm, currently (11.5.25) additional users with owner role can not change Panel language. We will revert on this.

5) would it be possible to somewhere add a link to this interface that points to the :8443 panel? ...
Thanks for idea. Yes, it can be done via custom plug-in (like Spam button that also came from plug-in)
will parallels take care of this in the near future or do we admins have to find a way to do it?
We will consider this during planning for next releases. Meanwhile, one can contribute to RoundCube plug-ins development and implement such "outside link button".

6a) question (could not test myself): if in the :8443 panel spam filter it's configured to move spam to the spam folder, do mails in fact go to the roundcube "junk" folder?
6b) question (could not test myself): does the spamassasin daemon learn from each users roundcube "junk" folder?
Will revert on this.
i will wait for your response on this. it is very important for this to work properly, or roundcube plugins will be nearly useless if they don't integrate/sync properly with :8443 settings
It is not forgotten. We will revert on this.

7) i have seen an option to import contacts if they are in a vcard format. is there any way to actually EXPORT?...
Contacts can be exported in VCARD format. SYNC (via SyncML protocol) is a really complex feature.
ok. thx
You are welcome.

8) i have read somewhere that roundcube supports plugins. do those plugins work in plesk too? is there any plugin that lets a user change their spamsettings (incl. b/w list) and their autoreply settings from within roundcube? ...
...
it would be extremely helpful if parallels could make a list of plugins they have tested that work 100% correctly and integrate well with plesk panel
for example, there are many roundcube autoreply and antispam settings, but which does work best with plesk?
EDIT: the plugin i am most interested in is called "sauserprefs" (https://github.com/JohnDoh/Roundcube...User-Prefs-SQL)
it is made by the same person that make "markasjunk2" which is a plugin plesk already incorporates by default
the problem is, "sauserprefs" works with spamassassin and the default mysql database/tables. however plesk changed that a lot, in first place the database is called PSA, then the tables have different names and structure
why did parallels decide to change spamassassin database so much that it is no longer compatible with 3rd party products "out of the box"?
can parallels please work together with the creator of those plugins to make roundcube+plesk+"sauserprefs" work together correctly?
Confirm, currently RoundCube "sauserprefs" plugin is not supported by Plesk. The spamassasin db is not the only difference, there are also difference in authentication, etc.
We already have this specific plug-in in our plans. Here is reference id: TP131730


9) when adding a new email to a domain, the defaul user role is "application user" which does not include antispam managing roles...
“Application User” role can be adjusted in order to enable antispam management. Both by admin and customer.
maybe my question was not precise.
the question is: how can i make it so a custom role i created ("webmail user") becomes the DEFAULT role when i create a new email?
It is possible to adjust "Application User" (enable "Configure spam filter" permission). This updated role will be automatically be applied for all existing and newly created emails.

10) probably a stupid question. i just came up with it so i didn't research on my own yet: could you tell me how to do it so when a user goes to http://panel.domain.tld he is redirected to https://panel.domain.tld:8443 ?
Redirect need to be setup: ...
ok, thx. this would not be really necesary if parallels can make point (5) possible
Noted.

 

[Sven L.]

Thank you for your response, Alexey.Plotnitsky

it's nice to see that you are working most of all that stuff, specially point (8)
however, that ID you gave me: TP131730 what is it for? where can I check that?

 

[Alexey.Plotnitsky]

Sven L., that ID is our internal reference. Anybody from Parallels Plesk can share status of this request.

 

[SibProgrammer]

4) there is no way for users to set their wanted default language

Go to Admin panel as admin -> Tools & Settings -> Languages -> Select the language -> Click Make Default.

 

[Alexey.Plotnitsky]

Go to Admin panel as admin -> Tools & Settings -> Languages -> Select the language -> Click Make Default.

Sven L., this way sets default language for all users in Plesk. Perhaps this will be enough in your case.
If it is not applicable, then certain additional users can select their desired language on login screen page.

 

[Sven L.]

Sven L., this way sets default language for all users in Plesk. Perhaps this will be enough in your case.
If it is not applicable, then certain additional users can select their desired language on login screen page.

no, sorry that is not enough. i have spanish, catalan, english and german customers and i need each of them to be able to set their own wanted default language.

english is the server-wide default language and i will have hundrets of complaints if people need to select their own language on every login.


HOWEVER: if you solve the problem nr. 8 and make sure 6a and 6b work, then the customers will not need to log into the panel at all as roundcube will have everything they need PLUS a working language selection.