FrontPage Support Outrage !!

[siren@]

Originally posted by breun
If you go to http://www.microsoft.com/frontpage you will be redirected to a page that tells you about MS Office SharePoint Designer 2007 and MS Expression Web Designer. I'm afraid both are Windows-only solutions, so your FreeBSD server won't be able to run your clients new sites if he chooses to go with either of these products.

Let's clear up this falicy.

SharePoint Designer "Will" require SharePoint Extensions, but it isn't the replacement for FrontPage.

The replacement for Frontpage is MS Expressions and, although it can use SharePoint extensions it also uses FTP the exact same way.

If you care about your customers then you will send them to that site and have them get Expressions so you keep the customer and they stay happy.

Even FrontPage extensions on Windows will be coming to an end soon.

 

[JustinTD]

Well, here's my problem ...

Alot of the coding I am doing is a hybrid of PHP/HTML/DHTML/CSS. I use FP for alot of that. Anyone who has used the "new" programs by MS must know all about the BOM issue with PHP. So for me, its not feasible to use Expression or Sharepoint Designer. So, I have to stick with FP until that is resolved. Not to mention, anyone in their right mind would not go run out and buy that latest technology which is unproven and forsake a program which has been in existence for nearly 12 years. FP is a proven technology. Sharpoint Services are ok, but still new. The Sharepoint clients are buggy as hell.

Now comes the other point, those of us who have 30-40 clients on a linux based server cant easily and readily switch to a windows server to resolve the FP issue. I am not asking anyone to include FPEX with new version, but we should still have SOME resource somewhere to download a package and maybe a tutorial to install it.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[KrazyBob]

I don't mean to be harsh, but some of you have clearly missed the obvious. Just read the current manual for 8.2 and you will find instructions for FrontPage usage. This alone obligates SW-Soft to support THEIR release.

I have just learned the hard way. I spent $25,000 on several new servers, loaded Virtuozzo into them, loaded Plesk 8.2 and mod_frontpage, and viola! No damn FrontPage. It's there, but broken.

Now here's the kicker: I discussed my plan of moving thousands of customers from Ensim servers directly with senior support staff. Not once did anyone say that after the move FrontPage would not work.

It is real easy to say that this is a Microsoft issue. NO. It is and has always been a SW-Soft issue. Read the release notes? Show me where it tells you that although FrontPage is advertised it won't work, and, they won't support it. It is simply ridiculous to create a migration plan direclty with Pavel and Deniss of SW-Soft, and then learn the hard way. It is equally ridiculous to read the Plesk 8.2 Server Admin and Domain Admin manuals and find discussion of FrontPage setup and usage.

 

[breun]

Thanks for crossposting.

 

[KrazyBob]

It sure wasn't deli8berate. I had several windows oipen. Thanks for the sarcasm. It makes my day.

 

[siren@]

Originally posted by KrazyBob
I don't mean to be harsh, but some of you have clearly missed the obvious. Just read the current manual for 8.2 and you will find instructions for FrontPage usage. This alone obligates SW-Soft to support THEIR release.

I have just learned the hard way. I spent $25,000 on several new servers, loaded Virtuozzo into them, loaded Plesk 8.2 and mod_frontpage, and viola! No damn FrontPage. It's there, but broken.

Now here's the kicker: I discussed my plan of moving thousands of customers from Ensim servers directly with senior support staff. Not once did anyone say that after the move FrontPage would not work.

It is real easy to say that this is a Microsoft issue. NO. It is and has always been a SW-Soft issue. Read the release notes? Show me where it tells you that although FrontPage is advertised it won't work, and, they won't support it. It is simply ridiculous to create a migration plan direclty with Pavel and Deniss of SW-Soft, and then learn the hard way. It is equally ridiculous to read the Plesk 8.2 Server Admin and Domain Admin manuals and find discussion of FrontPage setup and usage.

Get your facts straight, it is an MS issue.

When MS flat told the company making the port to unix to:

1.) Stop, we won't allow it anymore and

2.) You, nor anyone else, is allowed to distribute it any longer.

That makes it an MS issue.

People distributing it with new software still are violating MS policy and legal standing.

Maybe this is why cPanel is having such a hard time getting a Windows release out, they don't do what MS says so maybe MS won't help them.

And BTW, I don't believe the new Ensim release suports it either.

 

[KrazyBob]

When a company takes the time to consult at length with the software vendor (SW-Soft) and that vendor fails to state that an issue with FP will result, the issue is with THAT vendor. When the vendor provides sepcific upgrade and migration steps during the consultation that fail to address the later discovered migration failure that requires that many, many sites be migrated all over again, the issue is with THAT vendor. When that vendor is paid for the consultation and part of the labor, the issue is with THAT vendor. Not Microsoft. When the vendor buries one line in its release notes that the extensions are not longer distrubuted but does NOT remove any of the verbage in numerous administrator and end-user manuals for Plesk 8.2 discussing how to setup and manage FP sites, THAT vendor is the issue. One may speculate that Plesk manuals did not have these changes because sales would drop.

Had we undertaken this major upgrade without consulting with SW-Soft it would be our own fault for not knowing. We relied on paid professional services to guide us.

 

[siren@]

Considering it has been over a year since Microsoft announced it and the information is posted "ALL OVER" the net they probably assumed you knew.

Especially considering that one of the major things in this industry is keeping abreast with what changes are taking place.

If you don't, things like this happen.

 

[KrazyBob]

We were fully aware that Microsoft was not releasing upgrades to the 2002 extensions. We were not aware that Microsoft would not allow vendors to coniue deploying the existing extensions.

We have installed the extensions from an earlier release of Plesk. Now attempts to enter the FP Manager give an Internal Server Error. Users cannot login with FP 200x

Any thoughts on this?

-bash-3.00# rpm -qa | grep frontpage
frontpage-5.0-72psa.centos4.2

 

[HMIBarryLSalter]

What we did to install fp

What version of plesk did you install?

My plesk is 8.0.3 i believe (8.0.x for sure) and it still has the extensions in it. From that point, you should be able to hit the update button and have it update and not loose extensions.

hope that helps..

as a point of reference.. my last developer using front page is looking for other options even though we are doing our best to maintain fp in the server.

 

[KrazyBob]

I should have mentioned that we put Pleskm on top of Virtuozzo and one doesn't just click Update. We learned that lesson the hard way.

 

[HMIBarryLSalter]

I have had plesk since the early days (when it actually worked) and from experience, we ALL WAYS and WITHOUT EXCEPTION mirror the hard drive being updated. I agree with you, I retract the "just" from my pushing any button with Plesk excepting the one labeled "PANIC".

Barry lol

 

[KrazyBob]

PANIC is exactly where I am at. The Plesk Migration Tool tanked half of the Ensim sites. FrontPage tanked even though we thought that we had installed it (like others in this thread.) A dual processor Opteron with 4GB cannot handle 600 domains under Plesk and "support" hasn't been of much help. I'm installing anotgher box now to bounce the VE over to.

 

[basicdev]

I was a little upset when I found out my upgrade didn't have frontpage, but you still have the ftp portion of frontpage to manage.

I was going to install frontpage manually, but like what was said before, it will become a security risk.

 

[Amin Taheri]

When I heard MS was no longer offering it everyone in our hosting department did a dance of joy.

When we launched Linux hosting with out FP all our linux admins were doing the dance of joy.

Unfortunately our windows department still has to deal with it, but such is life.

if customers want FP they should be on windows, if they dont, then they can use linux.

If you guys are a one OS shop then you got some problems if your depending on FP clients to make your money, and shouuld have seen this comming with MS previous historical attitudes about not sharing technology unless a court forces them to.

Also to the guy who mentioned 12 years of frontpage, MS has on its site that is was only 9 years of hell instead
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/frontpage/default.aspx?ofcresset=1

I agree it sucks for a lot of people, but blaming SWSoft is not really the answer. Now that you know the way it has to be, you either have to get windows servers to offer FP or dont offer FP on new servers. Dont upgrade servers with out knowing what you are gaining and in some cases loosing. Always upgrade a test box before you upgrade a production server and test the hell out of it to find out what is being changed that is not int he offical change log or release notes.

There are several things you can do, but it sounds like the people who are complaining did not do any of these testing steps and were some what irresponsible by jumping into an upgrade before knowing how it would affect you.

just my 0.02

 

[HMIBarryLSalter]

I agree and disagree.

Before upgrading, we do a mirror of the drive.. We perform the upgrade, and then hit the sites across the board looking for problems and fix as we go. Most of the time, we inquire of others who have done the updates before us for their insight.

This time, I discovered the FP situation after the upgrade but it was an upgrade that I did not lose Front Page on, so I am NOT one of the victims. Secondly, I only have one customer and at one time, one other but he was a flake and left. BUT, this does not stop me from having a strong opinion about the situation and I still say it stinks!

And yes, "I" am well familiar with Microsofts ****, I have use MS software since DOS 3.01 (played with DOS 1.1 on TRSDOS conversions, 3.11 and excited about 3.30 3.5" 720s! AND 4/5 when they changed memory structure and f?????? everyone doing OS swap to disc and then did it themselves with the shell command.)

 

[KrazyBob]

HostingGuy continues to miss the points.

First, in our case, SW-Soft was PAID for their consulting services and failed to relate to us that FP would not be installed when following their recommendation to upgrade to Plesk 8.2.

Second, it is rather inappropriate to tell those of us that have chosen Linux for a stable server environment that it is our fault for not offering Windows. That was your companys' approach. FP extensions have long been offered for Linux because of demand. Now Microsoft has taken deliberate steps clearly designed to force end-users to switch to Windows hosting. This cannot be denied. Blaming the rest of us given what is clearly evident is quite frankly, rude.

 

[Amin Taheri]

In no way did I blame you personally or any other hosting company in general for the FP matter - all i said was that if you didnt test the updates to see if they fit your needs before implementing then that is some what irresonsible.

I dont think its a stretch to say that if you want to use a windows based technology (such as .Net, FP, classic asp, etc) then to use windows. Most other technologies will work the same on both platforms.

You are correct in your position regarding SWSoft consulting - they should have told you, but that was never a point in my argument as that relates only to you specifically and I am talking generally.

i also dont believe that telling some one something that they may not want to hear, but none the less is truthfull in its aproach is not rude, its being honest.

 

[HMIBarryLSalter]

Just consider, when a giant moves it's feet, a little slide in it's steps takes out villagers.

 

[basicdev]

Why not install the fp extentions manually?

edit:

SWSoft could still have included fp with their package.

FP license:

1. GRANT OF LICENSE. This EULA grants you the following rights:

* Installation and Use. You may install and use an unlimited number of copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT.

* Reproduction and Distribution. You may reproduce and distribute an unlimited number of copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT; provided that each copy shall be a true and complete copy, including all copyright and trademark notices, and shall be accompanied by a copy of this EULA. Copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT may be distributed as a standalone product or included with your own product.

* Termination. Without prejudice to any other rights, Microsoft may terminate this EULA if you fail to comply with the terms and conditions of this EULA. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the SOFTWARE PRODUCT and all of its component parts.

As long as you comly with the EULA, Microsoft shouldn't be able to terminate the use, distribution of the software.

PS. I have a copy of Microsoft FrontPage 2000 Server Extensions SR-1, UNIX 4.0 if anyone is interested.