Question The future of mailing list management?

[Jan]

Server operating system version

Debian

Plesk version and microupdate number

Obsidian

Hei folks,

I've been running Plesk on Debian GNU/Linux for some years, now. Doing so, I've been providing online services for small communitities (NGOs, etc.).
Email services and especially malinglists are critical for these communities , whereas plesk provides vital self-service capabilities (creating users, resetting password, managing mailinglists, etc.).

Unfortunately, the mailman integration doesn't really work with Linux distribution, nowadays. I'm still running Debian 10, because it is the latest version supporting the Plesk / mailman stack. Debian 10 "buster" was released in 2019 - more than four years ago. Security support ceased to exist in June 2022 (i.e. more that a year ago). Essentially, it's running on life-support (aka LTS). In a few months (i.e. June 2024) this will be gone as, too. Even today, running Debian 10 isn't considered as a best practice, whereas Debian 12 "bookworm" is the latest release.

For me, it looks like plesk's mailing lists support relies on mailman 2. But solely its sucessor - mailman 3 - is included in virtually all modern linux distributions.
Mailman 3 was released about 8 years ago in September 2015. To the best of my knowledge, during the last 8 years plesk made no noticeable effort to support mailman 3 and - hence - to continue supporting mailman in the long term at all.

For me, it looks like plesk mailman integration is dead and be phased out virtually in the next weeks / months. Is this correct?
Is there a reasonable way to provide full-featured mailing list services utilizing plesk's ui (i.e. self-service functionality) for customers beyond summer 2024?

--> Could you provide an outlook, please <--

For me, this is a critical feature.
Thanks,
Jan

 

[Peter Debik]

But solely its sucessor - mailman 3 - is included in virtually all modern linux distributions.

Actually, Mailman3 is not included in all modern Linux distributions. For example it is missing from Alma 9, RHEL 9, Ubuntu 22 etc. No other major panel supports Mailman 3 at this time either due to the lack of operating system support.

Plesk is aware that there are many users who are seeking support for Mailman 3. We have researched the situation an outlined specifications for this support, but it yet needs to be implemented. At the moment, no roadmap is available if or when this implementation will happen.

 

[Jan]

Actually, Mailman3 is not included in all modern Linux distributions

Well, please understand "But solely its sucessor - mailman 3 - is included in virtually all modern linux distributions." as:

All linux distrbutions that decided to go on shipping mailman at all (c.f. Does all Red Hat support for mailman in RHEL8 end at the end of June 2024? - Red Hat Customer Portal). Mailman 2 is not because it depends on Python 2. I'm not aware of any popular, modern Linux distribution that continues to ship with python2 and allows installing Mailman 2 in consequence.

Actually, Mailman3 is not included in all modern Linux distributions.

Well - point is: Most modern Linux Distributions contain the infrastructure (i.e. python 3) to install mailman 3. That's enough "operating system support".
Besides: apt / yum etc. is not the only package manager available on linux distrbutions. Typically, one can use pip and vitual envs for installing python packages (c.f. Virtualenv Installation — Mailman Suite 3.3 documentation). Other than that, it's not 2000-something-ish these days and docker is considered to be a realistic alternative for these kindes of deployments (docker-mailman).

Long story short: I don't a see a real problem with regarding a real "lack of operating system support". Mailman 3 can be installed and configured on modern distributions. It's up to plesk to opt-in for a suitable way.

However, if plesk does not switch to mailman 3, mailing list management is phased out virtually due to the python 2 / mailman 2 situation.
I'd like to get clear statement from plesk: It's obvious that nobody should not rely on mailman 2 / python 2 due to varios deprecations (esp w.r.t python 2). However, unlike RHEL, plesk has not deprecated mailman / mailing-list support officially, living its users in a limbo.

Please make a clear statement / KB article regarding this.

Thanks, Jan

 

[Peter Debik]

Let's ask @AYamshanov here, if there is any clearer statement possible than the above "At the moment, no roadmap is available if or when this implementation will happen."

 

[AYamshanov]

Hi Jan,

Since RedHat is not going to support mailman3 on their OSes, it means someone else should start providing packages and updates for mailman3 on RH-based OSes. It seems the same situation with Ubuntu for now. And only Debian provides updated packages. At the same time, mailman3 has a little bit different architecture and that means it is not possible just to replace mailman2 to mailman3, some adjustments in the integration side are required.

As Peter said, we already did some researches to estimate and to plan next steps. We are going to prototype a solution and depending on results of how the prototype works, make a final decision. Right now there is no ETA but it makes sense to up this topic after 6 weeks (Plesk release cycle).

 

[Jan]

Hei,

thanks for your help. One remark:

Since RedHat is not going to support mailman3 on their OSes, it means someone else should start providing packages and updates for mailman3 on RH-based OSes.

Well, I don't think so - there's been a swing towards distribution independent packaging based on pip, docker, snap (mailman is not using snap, though). IIRC,
Pip is recommended for deploying mailman3 these days. Running a virtual env is probably distribution agnostic in many aspects (excluding hooking mailman up to the MTA).

As Peter said, we already did some researches to estimate and to plan next steps. We are going to prototype a solution and depending on results of how the prototype works, make a final decision. Right now there is no ETA but it makes sense to up this topic after 6 weeks (Plesk release cycle).

Thanks; I'm going to check for the forum again a a few weeks.

If mailman is phased out, it'd be good to have a migration strategy (how to install mailman 3 manually, how to migrate old mailinglists, etc.).

Thanks Jan

 

[AYamshanov]

Just to keep everyone updated, I have no news (good or bad) regarding mailman3 because creating the prototype has been shifted to the next (18.0.57) iteration; at the same time, the mailman3 continues to be in our plans for the one of the near releases.

 

[Jan]

@AYamshanov
Thanks for the heads-up!

 

[Martin_Sauer]

Any news on mailman 3 support?

 

[AYamshanov]

Any news on mailman 3 support?

I hope to get news during a development iteration that is ongoing now. Let's wait for ~4 weeks.

 

[talthoff]

I hope to get news during a development iteration that is ongoing now. Let's wait for ~4 weeks.

Your "guess" is that 18.0.57 contains Mailman 3 in 3-4 weeks. Or do you know in 3-4 weeks if Mailman 3 will be included in that release?

 

[hschramm]

Any news on the future mailinglist management with mailman 3?

 

[AYamshanov]

Any news on the future mailinglist management with mailman 3?

Currently, I can say only two things,
- Unfortunately, mailman3 development was not started in Plesk 18.0.57 release,
- ...but mailman3 tasks have been moved into development as part of scope for Plesk 18.0.58 version. Usually, it is a good sign.

 

[Rolf]

Hello,
is there any news regarding mailman3 ?
Will it be part of the Plesk 18.0.58 release and when will it be available?
Thank you

 

[AYamshanov]

Thank you for asking. Yes, I have some news about mailman3 in Plesk. Part of work on adding mailman3 to Plesk is done. Currently, we are working on supporting mailman3 in Plesk for Debian 11 (unfortunately, other OSes have issues and limitations that currently block our work for these OSes).

In Plesk 18.0.58, we do not plan announce the mailman3 supporting as a feature ready to production deployment. For people who are interesting to test/play with mailman3 on top of Plesk Obsidian I will share on the forum some step-by-step instruction on how to activate the feature and get mailman3 working. But don't get me wrong, at the moment this is only for testing purposes in order to get the most complete feedback before the next release.

 

[Rolf]

Thank you very much!
For me this is great, as I'm still on Debian 11.
If you could please share a step-for-step instruction for testing purpose that would be beautiful!

 

[AYamshanov]

Hi everyone,

Since Plesk Obsidian 18.0.58 is already available, I am going to post the instruction here...

But before post the instruction, I would like to remind one more time that the support mailman3 in Plesk is NOT in production-ready state yet (in Plesk 18.0.58, I mean) and the purpose of the instruction is to provide an ability to test the integration with mailman3 to customers who are interested in the integration to collect feedback/ and info about bugs and to improve the feature during development of the Plesk Obsidian 18.0.59. We strongly insist to test the feature on a different server than production one.


Notes / Limitations:

• I would like to remind: Currently, it possible to install and test mailman3 only with Plesk installed on top of Debian11,
  • It’s not possible to install mailman3 on Debian 12 and it is dangerous to try (the package installation breaks the server).
• The instruction is valid only for Plesk Obsidian 18.0.58 (not for earlier versions and it will not be valid for later versions like 18.0.59+).
• In Plesk, Mailman3 web UI was not tested yet.
• The command "plesk sbin listmng change <name> <old domain> <new domain>" does not work correctly, it is known limitation fo now.
• Backups are not supported yet, it is known limitation for now.

If you use "postfix",

1. Connect to the server via SSH and install manually:
   # apt install mailman3-full -y
2. Reset extensions/components cache:
   # plesk sbin packagemng --set-dirty-flag
3. Log in to Plesk
4. Open "Extensions > Panel.ini editor" and add the following:
   

   [mail]
   enableMailman3 = 1

5. Go to service plans - make sure that “Mail > Switch on mailing lists“ is on and “Resources > Mailing lists“ is not zero.
6. To enable mailman3 web-interface integration, execute the next commands:
   # plesk sbin httpdmng --reconfigure-server
# plesk sbin httpd_modules_ctl -e proxy_uwsgi

As a result, you should have a mail list icon under "Domains > example.com > Mail tab"; plus a working CLI command “plesk sbin listmng“.


P.S. Let me know if you use "qmail" and would like to test mailman3, I will prepare and post the instruction for this environment too.

 

[blindzero]

Hi @AYamshanov,

great to hear about this and also about plans to support this ... maybe sooner than later ;-)

1. Go to service plans - make sure that “Mail > Switch on mailing lists“ is on and “Resources > Mailing lists“ is not zero.

Can you please tell a little more about this step? I cannot find any "service plans" part?

Thanks a lot,
Matthias

 

[Peter Debik]

In order to see "Service Plans" please login as "admin" or switch to "Service Provider View".

 

[blindzero]

In order to see "Service Plans" please login as "admin" or switch to "Service Provider View".

Hi @Peter Debik

ah I see...it seems that this is not available in Web Admin edition? (Difference between Power User View and Service Provider View in Plesk - Support Cases from Plesk Knowledge Base)

@AShekhovtsov Does that mean that mailman feature is also not really available in Web Admin?

Thanks,
Matthias